Jobseeker webinar – Job hunting like a boss

Jemeela Quraishi (JQ) And so, I just want to say a massive welcome to everyone joining this afternoon’s session today, which is all about job hunting like a boss. That’s how you’ll be. That’s what you’ll be doing after this, after this session, all about maintaining your resilience as you search for your ideal role. So, I’m really happy to welcome everyone. So, I’m just going to go through a couple of quick housekeeping things. So, as you might have seen, this afternoon’s session will be recorded. So, that’s also for anyone who is registering and hasn’t been able to attend today. They will also get access to the recording later on, as well as all of you who have joined us, been able to join us. Please do. I want to encourage you to use the chat over the course of the next sort of just under an hour. My lovely colleagues Zoe and Ali will be monitoring that and we’ll try and get some of your questions in the chat as well. And a big thank you to everyone, because I know lots of you have submitted questions in advance as well, which we’ll be working through with our wonderful panel today. And we should all be finished well before 1 o’clock. So, just to give you an idea of how today is going to run. So, my name is Jemeela Quraishi and I’m your chair for this afternoon’s webinar. I’m absolutely delighted to welcome all of you. And I’m part of the CIPD Trust Team here at the CIPD. And what we really exist to do is to tackle barriers to work, to try and create the inclusive workplaces of tomorrow. And the way that we do that is through the CIPD, the professional body for HR and people development. We have access to a huge network of HR professionals, some of whom you’re going to hear from this afternoon. And we work with them as whether they’re volunteering their time or whether they’re trying to change things within their organisations to become more inclusive, to really kind of help people like you to have a better chance of succeeding in accessing work and succeeding in work as well. 00 01 55 JQ And so, so it should be a great session this afternoon. And I’m hoping that all of you will get quite a lot out of it. And so, without further ado, I’d really like to introduce our fantastic panel today. And I’m going to ask each of our speakers if they can introduce themselves and tell us a little bit about your current role. And also, if you could share one particular one challenge that you have had with job hunting. And so, if I could come to you. Wendy first, then Dale and then Claire. So, Wendy, over to you first. Wendy Dorkin (WD) Hello, everybody. I’m Wendy. I’m the head of HR at West Tech Technology. So, I’m in charge of the full employee life cycle. So, that’s whether it’s attracting people, hiring people and then looking after everybody when they’re with the company. I’m also a mentor for Steps Ahead. So, used to mentoring people and helping them with the job search. Thinking about a challenge that I’ve had in job hunting, I can think back to a situation that I had a number of years ago where I was made redundant very suddenly. It came as quite a shock. You suddenly don’t have a job, felt very exposed, had felt I was quite nice and comfortable where I currently was. And on top of that, I was actually moving house the next day and wasn’t going to have an internet for a couple of weeks. So, initially thinking that’s really bad timing. However, when I did think about it, I actually thought in one way not having the internet at home was quite a good thing. I made use of the library and actually then ended up treating going to the library every day as if I was going to work. So, it was sort of that, you know, that old adage you might have heard about like sort of get up, dress up, show up, go to the library, use the facilities there. Get yourself out of the house. Get to talk to some people there and also use it as an opportunity to think, you know, now what do I want to do? Do I want to continue to look for the same role? Do I want to change it and try to look at it almost as a bit of a project to do research on companies, to have a look at things? And that’s kind of how I got through sort of that period. JQ Thank you, Wendy. Thanks for sharing. And Dale, if I could come to you next. Dale Cox (DC) Thanks. Thank you, Wendy. And good afternoon, everybody. I’m delighted to be here as part of the team and to be sharing my experience with you. My name’s Dale Cox. I’m currently the interim HR Director at Relate, the counselling organisation. I’ve been an interim for the last 20 years, which means I go in and out of companies on a short term basis. 00 04 41 DC I am a career HR professional, fellow of the Institute CIPD. I also do mentoring like Wendy does through Steps Ahead. And as well as going into local schools and helping them with their career strategies. I’m also a trustee of Citizens Advice. So, I have a very current challenge, actually, when it comes to job hunting, because my current contract, though it may be extended, my current contract at Relate is for three months. And the career option that I’ve chosen, which I absolutely love, I put myself willingly out of work every six to nine months because my contracts end and I have to go and find another job. So, how do I manage to come through that? Well, I’ve been doing it for the last 20 years, so I’ve got some experience of coping with those situations. And success really is down to a very strong network and knowing the right people to talk to, when to talk to people, how to keep in touch with them. And of course, the other top tip for interims is knowing exactly how to market and sell yourself. And I suspect that we might come on to that at some stage today. It’s an area that people are often slightly anxious about. We’re all a little bit coy, really, aren’t we? We don’t want to oversell ourselves. We don’t want to be arrogant about what we’ve done. But there is a fine line and a balance between selling yourself and being, overselling yourself. So, I’m very happy to share some of my experience as we go on today. JQ Thank you, Dale. And finally, Claire. Clare Humpleby (CH) Oh, thank you. So, thanks so much for having me this afternoon. I’m Claire Humpleby. I’m an HR consultant. And a career coach. So, I set up my own practice about two and a half years ago. And I work with clients who are making transitions with their careers. And then I also work as a consultant for LHH doing outplacement work. So, working mainly with people who’ve been made redundant. My background is HR. I’m a fellow of the CIPD. And I’ve been working in HR as an HR professional for over kind of 20 years in various different jurisdictions. We’ve moved locations quite a number of times. So, I’ve worked in Hong Kong and Singapore and London as well as now being based in Jersey. And I am also, like Dale and Wendy, I’m also a CIPD Steps Ahead mentor, which I’ve loved for the last three years. 00 07 02 CH In terms of my challenges, as I said, we’ve moved locations a number of times. And one of those times I was moving to Hong Kong. It was a result of being a trailing spouse and my husband’s role was moving. And as a result, we had to move as well. And moving to Hong Kong was a real challenge because there was a couple of issues around the fact that I don’t speak either Cantonese or Mandarin. I had no networks, as Dale was talking about previously. I’ve done a lot of contract and consulting work and it was always easy to use my network. I was moving from a location, Jersey, which is relatively small and people know the businesses and the type of work that you do, to suddenly then having worked for businesses that nobody knew about or understood, not helped by the fact that I worked in the public sector. So, things like fire service, prison service, etc., which were not transferable to Hong Kong. So, I had a bit of a challenge and it was difficult to find a permanent role. But what I did was I actually then took a contract role, something completely different to what I’d done before, much more of a focus on well-being, employee engagement. And it gave me the opportunity to develop a number of different skills which I haven’t had before. And actually, I was saying to Wendy earlier on in the call that we, you know, one of the factors was actually online working. And this is pre-Covid. So, you know, I then developed skills which came into a lot of use later on. So, I would say that it’s looking at different opportunities. Sometimes the perfect thing hasn’t come up, but you might get something from doing something that’s a little bit different. JQ Brilliant. Thank you, Clare. Thanks to all our panel for introducing themselves and sharing a bit about their own personal experiences. And I think what we can take from that is that we all at different times in our careers, we all have periods where it’s a bit more challenging. We have to maybe think a bit differently or, you know, navigate some of these some of these issues that many of you joining the webinar this afternoon are experiencing at the moment. And hopefully we can hopefully some of that has already sparked some ways in terms of how you can help yourself. And hopefully we’ll be able to provide more of that over the course of the webinar. And so, to really get you thinking in a, you know, in that kind of positive, positive mindset around this. JQ My colleague, Karina, is going to launch a poll in a moment. And we’re just going to ask you to complete that, which is to get you to think about what is a strength that you’re really proud of? And so, if we just give a few seconds, a minute or so for people to submit, submit what, you know, to really think about it. What is it? What is a strength that you’re really proud of? And I’m sure everyone has got at least at least one, if not many more. And so, let’s see what we let’s see what comes through. And after that, we will move on to the questions. Brilliant. So, we’ve got things like work ethic, empathy and persistence. That’s another good one. Pragmatism, problem solving. Lots of really interesting ones coming in quite a variety. Creativity, adaptable, solutions focused, trustworthy, integrity. Lots of really good ones coming through here. So, these are all things from what I can see and what our panel can see as well as these are all things that are all going to help you. Help you in your job hunting and in whatever role you end up. Quick learner, I like that one. Really good. Excellent and positive attitude. Fantastic. Some really good ones there. So, thank you. Thank you, everyone, for sharing. And hopefully that sort of got you in a good, good mindset to think about thinking about this in terms of how you can, how you can really sort of maintain your resilience and help you in your in your job hunting journey. So, for this one. For the next 30 minutes or so, I’m going to go through some of our questions. So, do make use of the chat and we’ll try and get to some of those if we if we can. And we will have a poll part way through just to see what you’ll see, what you’re taking in. So, I’d like to come to our first question, which really kind of ties in with the topic for today. And it’s how can you maintain that motivation during job hunting, especially when you’re experiencing a lot of setbacks? So, you know, you talked about in the intros, we talked about some of the things that you as panellists have done to help you. But, you know, obviously for a lot of people in that job hunting process, there’s a lot of setbacks as you go through. So, how can how can you really maintain that that motivation? And if I could come to you, Dale, first on that one. DC Yeah, thanks, Jemeela. This is one of the biggest challenges of all, isn’t it? And as we’ve explained in our introductions, it’s one that we’ve all faced as well. So, I think. My best advice on this is to when you’re thinking about a job search, success isn’t only about getting the job. DC And I think that it’s generally speaking, when you apply for the job, there’s only one job. And generally speaking, there are many more than one candidate. So, to get the job is the ultimate prize. But generally speaking, you’ll go through a process. So, you’ll apply. You maybe have a first interview. You might have a second interview. And as you work your way through each stage, as far as I’m concerned, getting through each stage is a success. So, that’s one way of maintaining your motivation. And the second way, I think, is to consider the application process as a learning process. So, what are you learning at each stage? So, if you’re not lucky enough to get through the first stage, for example, think about go back and think about and look at your application. And with the benefit of hindsight, what do you know now? What did you learn from that process? And keep learning through the process. And the last thing that I would say is in terms of motivation, and I do this myself as an interim of 20 years, is do seek advice and support from those that you trust, from those around you. Talk to people who know you and ask for their advice and their support, whether it’s friends or whether it’s family members, whether it’s ex-ex colleagues. There’s always a learning opportunity. And of course, you can only do this with people that you trust and people that you’re happy to be honest and frank with. But I find it now I’ve been, I’ve been in the workplace for a very long time, 35, 36 years. And I still use people around me that I trust for advice. It’s a great source of motivation. Never feel that you’re on your own and never feel that you’re climbing the mountain on your own. There’s always support and advice around you. JQ Thank you, Dale. That’s really great. Thank you. Could I come to you, Clare, as well on that one? Because I know you work with a lot of people as a career consultant. CH I do and I would definitely agree with Dale. I think it’s accepting that failure and setbacks are probably part of the process, unfortunately. And for most people, it’s kind of not a straight line success to, you know, the first job that you apply for is the one that you’re going to get. So, that continuous learning is really important. I’d also definitely agree in terms of having a support network and making sure that you’ve got people around you that will be supportive, but also kind of hold you to account because it can be demotivating. 00 14 16 CH You feel like you want to kind of drop off, don’t want to do any more. So, there’s kind of having different people around you to help and support you. That could be people that you know, but it might also be kind of online groups and forums and job seeking support networks that could be useful as well. I think Wendy in her introduction and her explanation of kind of her previous job hunting experience made some really good points about things like routine, you know, finding having a plan around what you’re going to be doing and having a routine that kind of keeps you going, even when you feel like maybe the motivation is kind of lacking a little bit. And I think kind of building ways to maintain your own resilience. So, accepting that it’s not all about the job hunting, but you’ve got to be in a good kind of mental frame of mind as well as, as doing the practical sides of things. And overall, I would say one of the things that I kind of like to keep in mind and also comes up a lot with clients is thinking about kind of the change curve and the fact that this is a big change that you’re going through. And there are different stages of that. I mean, often we talk about kind of the grief curve and the change curve is very similar to that. You’re going to have these different emotions and some days are going to be easier than others. Some days are going to be better, but recognising it’s a normal, natural process. It’s what most of us have to go through as part of the job hunting. And to just keep that in mind and keep that perspective. JQ Yeah, I think that’s a really interesting point actually around that change curve, because one day might be a really bad day for whatever reason, but that doesn’t mean the next day is not going to be a much, much better day in terms of that, in terms of that job hunting experience. And if I could come to you, Wendy, and this is kind of tying into one of our other questions. So, one of the things that we’ve been asked is around how do you cope and how do you keep going when recruiters are ghosting you so not, you know, you’re sending out all these applications and people aren’t replying. So, Wendy, I wanted to come to you to tie into that point and think about it also from that employer perspective as well. WD I think that can feel difficult as well. I’d say one of the things is not to take it personally. There could be various reason why people haven’t got back to you. They could just be that they’ve had so many applications they’re struggling to cope with, or that some key person could, you know, could be off and do, you know, also look at it. WD And I would sometimes say as well that if you feel that you just ghosted initially, I would say try a follow up call just as sort of a reminder. I would use the same communication that you’d used previously. So, if you’d spoken to somebody, you know, on the telephone, I’d give them a call, give them an email. If you still don’t hear after that, then I would also say, well, maybe you’ve actually dodged a bullet. Maybe that’s not a company that you want to work with. If that’s the way that they treat people, because I do think it’s really important from my perspective that I always make sure that I get back to people that you give feedback. So, I think it’s trying to look at that and to still, as the others have said, maintain that resilience and know your worth as well. And know that there’s other opportunities, you know, out there as well. And not sort of put all your eggs in one basket if you’re looking for things. I think you have different avenues that you’re looking in and stuff that you’re doing in parallel as well. And I would also say sort of as an overall maintaining that resilience as well. I think the importance of self-care through the process is also really important as well. So, as much as you could, you can feel as though all your focus isn’t going to a job, but things like making sure that you’re still looking after yourself and eating properly and exercising, moving and making sure that you spend time with people that you care about. Doing some social activities as well is also important to make sure that mentally you’re looking after yourself. But keeping that positivity will then show through when you actually do go to the next stages and interviews, etc. JQ That’s a really good point, is that kind of having that balance, isn’t it? Especially if you’re, you know, if you’re not, you know, you’re not doing any of this paid work at that time. And another good question that we had is around, being in that situation where, you know, you don’t have, you don’t have a job. You’re trying to, you’re trying to find, you know, you’re doing that job search. And, you know, perhaps you get to that point where you’re talking to an employer about a potential role. So, how do you, if you’re in that situation, how do you maintain your stand in a kind of, when you’re negotiating on salary or whatever the package might be? And Clare, if I could come to you on that one initially. Thank you. 00 18 58 CH Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think what I would always start with saying is, and I think Wendy alluded to this earlier, is know your own worth. You know, do your market research, understand what the market is like, and you can do that through, you know, potentially through salary surveys, through job adverts, through talking to your contacts in your network and know what, you know, know what you’re worth, first of all. And then also have a clear idea of what you can accept as a minimum. So, keep that in mind so that then when you go into it, into the process of starting to discuss salaries, you’ve kind of got a clear benchmark. Obviously, I think the general advice is try not to discuss salaries at interview. Try and discuss it when you’ve been offered the role because I guess from a, and I guess it’s a kind of a power dynamic in a way, once you know that the organisation wants you, then that possibility of negotiation is slightly higher. That’s not always possible. So, you know, I think it is about thinking about how you’re going to answer those questions and knowing, as I said, knowing what your market rate is and what’s reasonable. I think the other thing to also really consider is the wider package. So, you know, you may not be able to negotiate on salary. But for example, if you think about what are the hours, what are the benefits, what is things like pension, life insurance, those types of benefits, maybe you could negotiate on some of those. I’ve certainly been in situations and certainly more from a contract point of view where, for example, the client has, the employer has a budget. In mind, they want to employ you, but you perhaps typically would cost a bit more. But could you do reduced hours? You’re going to be delivering a lot more for them. So, there’s thinking about that kind of broad and negotiation. It’s not just salary. But I think starting off with knowing your own worth and knowing the market rate is really important. JQ Brilliant. Thanks, Clare. And I’ve come to you, Dale, on that one as well, because as you’ve got through your interim HR director, you’ve got a lot of experience, I imagine, of having to do that. DC Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, I’d absolutely support what Clare has said, that you are, you’re never in a stronger negotiating position than when somebody wants you to sign a contract. DC So, when somebody wants you, you should feel able to, you should feel bold and brave, but not silly. So, you balance all the points that Clare has mentioned. It partly depends on how the organisation views salaries as well, because some organisations are much more flexible about paying for the person. So, in other words, they’ll increase the pay because they really want you. Some organisations, particularly, for example, in the public sector, are much more structured. And particularly organisations, for example, that have a strong union presence might have a different kind of salary structure. So, they tend to pay for the job. And the difference is, of course, you pay for the person, you can stretch as an employer. You pay for the job, you’ve generally got some defined boundaries. But I was also thinking while Clare was talking about, I had a text this morning, actually, which from an ex-colleague, very, very good ex-colleague, who is looking to break out of the specialism that she worked in at the moment into a broader generalist role. And we just had this two hours ago, had this conversation about whether she would compromise on her salary to do that. And the answer was she would. So, there are reasons why at times you would, you know your value, but you balance that against the opportunities that the job might offer. So, if you’re looking to break into a particular sector, for example, that is incredibly competitive and very difficult to get into, that’s a reason why you might compromise. If it’s your absolute dream job, that’s why you might compromise. The financial reality of your own situation, that’s why you might compromise, because you need the work. So, does the job open doors for you for the future? So, in other words, is it a good job, good opportunity? So, my friend that I was talking to earlier, she’s looking for a stepping stone, probably to go sideways to then go up. So, there are all sorts of reasons why you would want to think really carefully. Having said all of that, you are never in a stronger position to negotiate than when somebody wants you to go and work for them. JQ Brilliant. Thanks, Darren. Yeah, no, that’s a really good point. And thinking about that wider aspect of where you can negotiate as well is really useful. I wanted to come on to another question, which I think you’ve got, some of you kind of alluded to around networks and making use of your networks. There’s the kind of personal networks in terms of family and friends and groups and things like that. I just wanted to kind of build on that question a bit more. So, Wendy, if I could come to you first. 00 23 37 JQ Someone’s asked, what are some unconventional ways to network effectively during a job hunt? Because I know network for me, whenever I hear that, even though I know it’s not a network for me, I always think of those stuffy rooms and trying to eat something and talk to someone at the same time. And I know often, actually, there’s such a broad way that you can network. And some of that’s been mentioned. But Wendy, if you could say a bit more on that one, that would be great. WD Well, I think if you’re looking at an industry that you either want to get into or want to change roles in, then I think it’s about looking at what’s going on in the industry. Are there any events that might even be online that you can join? Sometimes even doing some additional upskilling, some training courses that will put you in touch with the right people that are either working in companies that you can speak to about are there jobs going, sort of, etc. I think it’s always just being kind of aware of what’s out there, doing your research, making sure that you have the right skills. And, you know, it is also about talking to people that you meet as well, because as much as we have nowadays, the job boards and all the ways of getting jobs online, there’s still quite a bit to be said about word of mouth. And sometimes it’s just letting people know that you’re looking for a job in the industry, mentioning to people and people might just know of things that are happening in various other areas. I think it’s always looking at any opportunity that you have. And yes, it doesn’t mean that you need to physically be present. It could be chatting to people, connecting to people on LinkedIn or looking at companies, doing some research on if there’s a particular company that you think that you’d like to join as well. Look at that. Do they have an open day? Have they got any events that you can attend, you know, etc? Could you reach out to some HR departments are happy. Us, for example, happy for people to reach out and just express an interest. And if you get a good person with a good CV and experience, sometimes there are things that haven’t yet been advertised that you were, the roles that you were going to be advertising soon. So, I think it’s just making use of all of that. 00 25 47 JQ Thanks, Wendy. And Clare and Dale, just before we, because we’re going to have another poll in a second, did you want to say anything? Do you have anything to add to that at all? CH Dale, I’ll go first if you like. I would say, I mean, I, yeah, I am a person that dreads the rotating the room with a glass of wine in one hand and a can of tea in the other. So, that’s my worst idea of networking. I really like the idea that networking is actually really more about people helping people. And that’s kind of the way that I like to think about it. And I think, you know, obviously it’s a bit of a challenge. You’ve never done any networking before you start job hunting. So, this is possibly something to consider as part of your just wider career and how you manage your career generally, that you keep those networks intact. And as Dale said, it’s really, it’s been really important in his own career, you know, career management and finding those roles. So, I think it’s about helping other people. One of the things I would say is I really like Wendy’s point that, you know, it might be about your connections. But one of the things that I’ve learned is that your connections will often know about the kind of same opportunities as you to a certain extent. So, what you also want to be thinking about is your connections, connections. So, who do they know? Who could they introduce you to? Who can they connect you with? And obviously those are kind of warm connections as well. And it might be, I think LinkedIn is brilliant for this. I’m a real fan of LinkedIn for the fact that you can get in contact with people that you might have worked with years ago. But, you know, you still had a good relationship, but you haven’t seen them for coffee. But you could still get in contact with them. So, I think it’s about kind of networking, but also really thinking about what you can do for other people. So, it may not be that every conversation that you have is about an actual job search. It might just be that you can do something to help them. And then at some point further down the line, they’ll think of you in relation to a role and be able to help you then. JQ Thanks, Clare. Dale. DC Yeah, just a couple of quick points to add. Clare, that was exactly the point I was going to make about your connections, connections. Generally speaking, the human spirit is inclined to be helpful. I think that’s fair to say. DC And my experience has always been that if you contact somebody and say, I’m looking for some help or do you know anybody who, then generally speaking, people will be helpful. And don’t worry about the fact that you haven’t spoken to people for a while. You’re right that LinkedIn is fantastic for that. I was just going to give an actual example of LinkedIn of somebody that I used to work with. And I was talking to her on a fairly regular basis after I left. And she was setting up her own coaching business and had made a commitment to build her presence on LinkedIn, not just by saying I’m available. You know, I’m running a coaching business. So, there are some things that she does brilliantly. So, every Friday she puts fun facts up, for example. And one of the things that she has done over a relatively short period of time is really established a presence. And the number of connections that she now has through that. And sometimes I read on LinkedIn people saying, well, you know, LinkedIn is a little bit old hat now. And people use it for all sorts of different things. And it doesn’t always work. I got my latest job through LinkedIn, by the way, direct contact through LinkedIn. But there’s something about how you use LinkedIn or other social media platforms now for your presence without necessarily saying, give me a job. So, because sometimes there are some things on there that verge on looking a little bit almost desperate. And so how do you present yourself and put yourself across and market yourself? And so, it’s that established that presence. But I think the connections connections is an absolutely brilliant one, because if you take that to its extreme, your connections become absolutely limitless. And we all need help at times, all of us. So, I would say use that. JQ Brilliant. Thank you, everyone. So, we’re just going to take a very brief pause and we’re going to launch up some really good nuggets in there. And I know Ali and Zoe have been pulling out, pulling some of those out in the chat, which is just great, definitely things that we can take away and think about. But Karine is going to launch our next poll, which hopefully some of the discussions so far will help with. So, what is one thing you will do to keep your resilience up? And then we’ll move into the next lot of questions. I’ll also have a quick look in the chat as well to see which questions we’ve had there. 00 30 08 JQ So, I’ll just give people a bit of time. So, what is one thing you will do to keep your resilience up after what you’ve heard so far today? I’ll just wait for those responses to come through. One thing you all do to keep your resilience up. I’m not sure if there’s a delay. I can’t see anything coming up on the on the poll but I’ve seen some things in the chat. So, that’s great so some people said have a positive mindset that’s from Marianne brilliant. Celebrate the small wins I think that’s really good advice isn’t it. So, from Christine there celebrate the small wins because you know sometimes we focus on the we incline to focus on that and when things go wrong but actually thinking about those small wins we have as we go through. I think Dale when you were talking about the beginning about that whole, success is not always but it’s not only about getting the job actually getting through certain stages is something that we should recognise and see in terms of the success as well. Being intentional, not taking rejections personally, that’s another really good one. Know my worth, I think that’s something that we’re all going to probably take away from today, is know what your worth is, in terms of when you’re going to that job hunting. Brilliant. OK. So, I’ll never give up it’s a matter of time, I like that. Take a walk, yes, know when we need a break. We’re doing it constantly anything, anything in life we’re doing it constantly it’s going to get, it’s going to, you know, you always need a break don’t you to help keep that mental well-being and mental resilience going. So, that’s great. I love those so, let’s make the most of the remainder of the session to move on, some move on to some of our other questions. So, we’ve had a question around, around sort of getting past, the getting to that stage that interview stage. So, someone said I don’t think I stand out on on paper, how can I, but feel that feel more confident around selling them, it’s there in that interview panel kind of situation, any and then I think this applies more generally probably across the board anyway is that how, what any tips in terms of getting through that initial sift especially when thinking about you know organisations using different ways to recruit people. Whether it’s whether it’s applicant tracking systems or more traditional you know, someone reviewing your CV and covering letter and that kind of thing. 00 33 03 JQ So, Wendy if i could come to you first on that one from your kind of head of HR kind of head. WD Well, I think with that it’s really important to properly look through the job and what information’s been put about the company. Do some research on the company, really look at the job description and any of the attributes and make sure that your application reflects that because what a company is looking for is you know, if when we put together a job description those are the competencies or the behaviors or some of the experience that you were looking for in people and you’re kind of wanting to get CVs and applications in matching that as close as possible. And so, it’s definitely about looking at that make sure that i’ll see that as almost like looking at those are questions and can you answer them if you look at your CV? Does it point to the things that they’re actually asking for? Making sure that you tailor your CV as well don’t just use one CV for every job. Make sure that you highlight specific things on that job requirements if you’re writing a cover letter, if there’s a request for that. Again, it’s about doing very specific about what can you bring to that role and really making sure that you fully understand what’s been asked for that you can show how what you’ve done actually tailors what the company is looking for. And then definitely doing some research on the company if it’s a company that you’re not aware of. Look at their websites, look at the social media because a company is looking for somebody that’s going to be coming in understanding them matching their values as well is also really important. How can you show evidence of that and then very much matching what they’re looking for in the job and I think doing that is really important and then they, just some basic things which might sound over simple but just something like looking at your CV and your cover letter making sure you’ve proofread it. Making sure it looks neat and easy to understand, perhaps getting a, you know friends or family member to have a read through and just make sure because it’s very easy when you’re writing anything to let a typo slip etc. and just have somebody else have a look at it and say does that look nice and neat and easy before you send it off. Thanks, thanks Wendy and Dale if i could come to you on that one as well. 00 35 24 DC So, firstly all of that that Wendy has just said, all of that. I used to work for a publishing company and I did a lot of recruitment for editors and sub editors and if there was a typo or grammatical error then the recruiting manager just discounted the CV straight away because why would you take somebody on into a job that involves proofreading if you can’t proofread your own CV for example. So, you know these things they they sound obvious and particularly nowadays with you know, with spell checkers on CVs, we’re not always as thorough as we might be. It’s a very competitive market always has been, always will be but there’s always space in the market for good people. A couple of things that I’d add one is because there’s been quite a lot of talk Jemeela and the questions about applicant tracking systems. So. and I don’t know whether you’re going to go to Clare this isn’t something you might pick up as well Clare. But I think generally our advice would be, don’t assume that there is a golden ticket to an applicant tracking system because there are lots of different applicant tracking systems. They work in slightly different ways, recruitment consultants use them slightly differently from some organisations, some organisations don’t have them particularly smaller organisations. So, it’s, you can’t not work hard and focus on your CV. You can’t just think well if I look up on the web, on the internet and it tells me to do this for applicant tracking systems it will work. The only other thing I’d add about CVs is, I do think it’s really important to have active language on your CV so your CV is not a job description. It absolutely isn’t. We’ve all, all three of us on the panel have spent far too many hours, days, months pouring over CVs throughout our careers and one of the ways to to help you stand out is to be, is to talk about the where the organisation is for example, what type of organisation you’re working for, put some metrics in, what’s the size of the organisation, what’s the size of the team? Who did you report to? What did you achieve? Did you hit your targets? Very active language that will appeal to people and I’ll tell you now it will stand out because a lot of people don’t write their CVs in that way. And then just the flip side of that is, don’t make it easy for people to move on to the next CV. Don’t make it easy. So, make your, make your story your CV your personal marketing story interesting and engrossing, you know, think of the person reading it. Think of me reading it on a sort of wet Wednesday in February with the last thing that I’m doing in the afternoon and actually all I want to do is get home. 00 38 06 DC Why would I carry on reading your CV. So, they’re just some of the some of the tips I’d offer. JQ Thanks Dale. And Clare, I don’t know if you’ve got anything to add to that and I also had a question around how you position yourself positively if you’ve done a lot of job hopping. So, I don’t know if you could bring something out around that Clare as well in terms of some of the people you work with. CH Yeah, I guess there’s a lot. Both the points that Wendy and Dale make are fantastic. I would say in summary of what Wendy said, the way I think of it is joining the dots. So, what you’re doing is you you know, a recruiter is, a let’s assume we’ve got a human recruiter, they’re a busy person. They’re seeing lots of CVs as Dale and Wendy will have alluded to and actually what you want to do is make it as easy for them to see the connection between the role that they’re recruiting for and your skills, experience, knowledge, competencies, values, alignment. So, where you can, things like as Dale mentioned using the same language thinking about the language from the job description all of those elements are really important. With regards to applicant tracking systems, I think this is a really good point. I think you want to make your CV suitable for both applicant tracking systems and human recruiters. And there are some little things that you can do around kind of general applicant tracking systems but ultimately what you want is a great CV. And I and then again personalised, I think Dale’s point about really making this compelling, a friend of mine who I worked with about 20 years ago and actually also was at university with showed me their CV and it was great technically, it was absolutely brilliant. They work in HR as well and it was absolutely brilliant but honestly their personal summary gave no flavour of the type of person they are to the work with. And they’re great to work with, they’re really focused you know they didn’t come across that way. So, I think it is also making sure that your CV is you which is, I guess the danger of someone else is writing your CV for you. So, it’s important that it’s your CV. With regards to job hopping and the challenge around job hopping. I think again it comes back to language and reframing this. I mean job hopping kind of sounds so negative doesn’t it but actually, Dale, I hope you’re not offended but Dale’s been job hopping. 00 40 34 CH So, have I as a consultant, a lot of job hopping but actually what that’s brought me is a huge number of transferable skills from different industries, from different types of environments, from working with different people. The ability to quickly work out what is needed within a business and start delivering straight away. So, I think it depends on your reasons for job hopping and you might have to think about how you explain that. And obviously you want to do that in a positive way but rather than focusing on it as being job hopping, I think it’s thinking about what you’ve gained from those different experiences that could now be beneficial within this new role and new organisation. JQ Brilliant, thanks so much that’s some brilliant advice. Lots of useful nuggets within that and I can see Ali and Zoe have been pulling out a few of those snippets in the chat for people too. So, a couple of other things so just another question around and I guess it’s trying to again get that because I think all of you talked about you know, remember it’s you know, there is a human behind the the recruitment process and and even if you are going through an applicant tracking system, a human will be looking at it eventually so and you and if you do get to interview you have to be able to talk about what you’ve written down. So, remembering, I think that whole thing of your CV is used, you know, needs to be reflective of you and what you can offer and who you are so that’s something that I think it’s really, really excellent advice. If I could come to you, Wendy, just on another question around just to get a bit more of that kind of employer perspective. So, building on that point, really. And what, you know, what hiring managers or HR are expecting to see in terms of, you know, experience and attributes and candidates, particularly around possibly entry level roles or, you know, what’s what are there any things that any additional things that we can pull out in terms of what people should be thinking about that will that hiring managers will be looking at or that is more likely to make things stand out? What’s that kind of employment perspective? WD I think one of the most important things is really attitude. If somebody’s got a positive attitude, are they keen, are they interested, are they curious, particularly somebody coming into an entry level job where they’re not going to have the experience. But if somebody’s got that natural curiosity, interest, they’re keen to learn, they’re keen to try different things that really shines through. 00 42 58 WD And that is becoming more and more important because you can teach people the technical aspects of the job, but you need people with the right attitude to come in. And somebody that has done a bit of research on the company, you know, that is because what you want to see as well, that somebody actually wants to work for you and be part of your team. You’ve already got people in your company, you need to know that they’re going to be a fit and that they’re going to bring something positive into the company as well. So, if somebody’s actually done a little bit of research on your website or they’ve looked at some of your social media and they talk about that as well, and they kind of display the values that they have and definitely that positive attitude and that keenness and self-awareness as well. So, as we’ve mentioned, whether it’s somebody that’s done a bit of so-called job hopping or they’ve had a bit of a career break. Or it’s their first entry into the world. It’s that self-awareness to say what they’ve learned, what they realise they need to still work on, but the positivity that those are things that they are going to work on. And I think all of that really stands people in good stead. I mean, we’ve had people that have all the technical skills, but without the right attitude that we won’t employ those people. But somebody comes in and they might not in some cases have all the experience or the skills you would have liked, but the whole attitude towards them. The whole curiosity, the whole keenness, just shines out so much that you’re like, I’m going to give this person, I want to give this person a chance. And that just goes such a long way. JQ That’s brilliant. Thank you. So, we’re almost to time. I’m going to be definitely going to ask at least one more question. So, but before I do that, I just wanted to, we’re going to put a feedback survey into the chat. So, I just wanted to encourage everyone to start thinking about putting out that. But I’m going to ask one last question of all my panellists. And I’ve got more questions on the list that I’d love to have got through, but hopefully I think we’ve had a really good discussion today. So, my last sort of question to each member of the panel is, you know, what’s the one thing that, you know, thinking about all the people who’ve joined us this afternoon and all the people who will be watching it later, who perhaps haven’t been able to join right on time, but have registered to take part. 00 45 13 JQ What is the, you know, what is the one thing you’d like people (inaudible) from today? So, if I could come to you first, Dale. DC I’m going to concentrate on the positive frame of mind and you’ve got to be, job hunting is hard work. It’s not easy. And you have to put the time and effort into it. And sometimes I did a lot of work earlier in my career with sales people. They’re always facing disappointment. They’re always losing. So, they don’t win every time. So, it’s that, I hope we’ve given you some tips and some hints to stay positive. And the best way to do that is take a minute, reflect on yourself, reflect on the things that you’re good at, that you do well, your strengths. Think about the person that you are. Don’t let your job search be defined by what you perceive as quote unquote, failure. Think about yourself, what you have to offer your strengths. There’s so much about you, about each of you, all of you on this call that is so very positive. And you’ve got to take that into an interview process and an application process, because that’s a fantastic starting point. And lots of people don’t and the people who do, and I echo everything that Wendy has said. I think there’s a, broadly, there’s a move not in every interview, not in every case, but broadly, there is a move now towards looking at personal attributes, interpersonal skills. Your curiosity, your willingness to learn and your positive frame of mind will help you to stand out from the crowd. JQ Thank you Dale. Clare, if I could come to you next. CH Yeah, I mean I would definitely agree, keep the positive frame of mind. I think preparation helps with that. I think that links in with that self-awareness but that preparation of knowing your strengths, knowing your own values, knowing your market rate, all of that will keep you kind of solid in you. Whilst all of that kind of noise is going around you about what happens with the with the process. I think it’s accepting that it’s also a, not a, not a kind of linear process and that this is pretty normal to have those different feelings and experiences as you’re going through this process and that you know, each day will be different and you’ve just got to keep moving forward. 00 47 32 CH We have a saying that we use in our house a lot what’s meant for you won’t go by you. So, you know if one job hasn’t worked out as Wendy said you might have dodged a bullet but there will be other opportunities if you keep that persistence up and you keep maintaining your momentum to move forward. JQ Thanks Clare and to Wendy. WD Just to really endorse what Dale and Clare said as well and then I think on top of it. It’s just, I really believe that there is a great job out there for everybody. Everybody’s got something unique to bring to the table and as we said concentrate on the strength, concentrate on what you have done and just sort of keep the spirit up and keep the perseverance and the preparation is important as well. Doing your research asking for feedback and yeah, just definitely keeping the positive and the self-care as well, I think very important. JQ Brilliant, thank you so much a huge thank you to all the panellists. There’s definitely a few things that that I’ve taken away from this just from hearing all of you and that whole thing around knowing you’re worth, knowing what you’ve got to offer, keeping positive. But I think it’s been a, you know, really interesting, interesting discussion. I think that thing as well around recognising you know, connections lead to more connections, you know, having those people. I think Dale something that you said quite early on that really resonated with me was that thing around you know, drawing on people you trust to kind of keep you, you know, in terms of what their feedback is and getting their feedback to keep you kind of, help keep you positive whilst also trying to trying to build your, you know, I think you’ve all talked about this in terms of building your network, make use of things like LinkedIn and recognise that it’s, you know, this is not an easy process. There’s going to be ups and there’s going to be downs but and I like that, I think what, I can’t remember exactly how you said it Clare but what goes you know, the whole thing around sometimes it’s just not meant for you and if a job doesn’t work out you know, it doesn’t work out, that’s probably because there’s something that’s more right for you around the corner. So, yeah so, hopefully everybody who’s joined this afternoon has taken some really, some little nuggets in terms of what’s going to help you in terms of your job hunting journey. 00 49 47 JQ And just to encourage you again just to complete the feedback form if you haven’t already. We will send it in the follow-up as well because we really want to to hear from you in terms of what you thought about this afternoon’s session. And we also have a couple more webinars coming up which Zoe’s just popped the link into the chat as well. So, we’ve got one in July and one in September but you can find out more about those within that, within the link within the chat. So, I think just the last thing that remains for me to say is a huge, huge, thank you to our fantastic panellists Clare, Wendy and Dale. I think there’s some fantastic insights and from all of you so and so and as I say we couldn’t do this without your fantastic support and your knowledge and experience sharing this today. So, and thanks to everyone who’ve joined. Hope you’ve got a lot out of it but that’s all that remains to say, thank you. And I hope you have a good rest of day and are feeling buoyed up and positive after after the wonderful evening insights of our panel, thank you.