Get into work

00 00 00 Zoe Raymond (ZR) Workplaces, and one of the ways that we do that is by providing opportunities for uh people who’ve got like fantastic experience in HR and recruitment to share their wisdom with people who might be struggling a little bit with that job search. I mean, I think we all struggle with a job search that’s probably all of us, but yeah. So, we’ve got a really great panel today who are going to share some of their professional experience with you on kind of how to get the most out of your interviews. And if you want to find out more about the CIPD trust, we are at cipdtrust.org. I’m sure one of my colleagues will drop that link in the chat, I’ve got a couple of bits of housekeeping to go through. So, the first one is you should have access to the chat and Q&A. If you have any questions please do pop them in the Q&A. We should have some time at the end to run through those so, yeah please do feel free to ask anything of the panel. I’ve got two amazing colleagues, Ali and Resonate, who are in the chat they will be answering any questions that you have there, they’ll be sharing some links. So, yeah do feel free to use the chat and if anyone is having any issues with the chat or the Q&A, we do know that sometimes there are technical problems with accessing it. First of all, really sorry about that. Secondly, do just try leaving the meeting and rejoining, and hopefully that will sort it out, and if not, do just drop us an email and let us know because we are kind of working on it in the background. So, as much information as we can get as possible. And finally, we are going to be recording this session, so, do just be mindful about any questions that you ask that you’re happy for those to be read out and things like that. Looks like the recording has already started. So, I think we’re kind of ready to go. So, I have a very small confession to make about this webinar. So, I chose the topic of this webinar and the reason that I chose this is because I have in the past, attended interviews and received job offers and not really asked the right questions about the organization or about the job, and I found myself in that like terrible position of being offered something and not really knowing if I want it or if it’s something like that, you know, I’m like, I want to commit to and like taking a job, it’s like a huge commitment that’s like a huge part of your life. And being in that position of not quite having all the information that you need is not great, so I wanted to make sure that none of you make that mistake. 00 02 36 ZR And luckily today you are not going to be hearing from me because as I’ve demonstrated, don’t always have the right answers. But you are going to be hearing from our fantastic panellists. So, I’m going to ask them to introduce themselves. I’m going to start with Paul. Do you want to go first, Paul? And maybe just tell us a bit about yourself and maybe how you feel about interviewing as someone who kind of interviews from the other side as it were. Paul Beal (PB) Sure. Lovely to be here. Welcome everybody. So, my name is Paul Beal, originally from Scotland still got my accent but live down in the south of England. So, I’ve worked in HR, I’ll be quite honest 30 years I just turned 60 in April, I can’t quite believe that. So, I’m a fellow of the CIPD and my career has been in kind of four phases really to be honest. So, first phase is, I became a HR director in the NHS and worked across London and the southeast then I had another phase for about six or seven years where I worked as an intro manager troubleshooting at director level in different organizations, but again in the NHS. Then the third part of my career has been as managing director of a small consultancy business which is called Insightful Exchange, which has specialized in leadership development and coaching. And at the end of April, I stepped down from that, I earned my 60th birthday, and my business partner has taken on the MD role, and I now work as a therapeutic coach, which is about integrating coaching and counselling, and working with lots of people in lots of different organizations, helping support them with some of the challenges in the workplace or their personal lives. Interviewing so, I have probably done thousands of interviews over the years as an HR professional, but like my colleagues comment there and particularly when I did the interim work, I think it is very much a two-way street. So, there is really something about I’m sure we’ll explore this in the session about really doing your own research about the organization and the culture etc, really I’ve certainly done that in interim management jobs. So, again I’ll be quite open there’s been organizations I’ve gone in and worked with them for six months and they’ve said oh, would you like the permanent job, and I’ve said have a lovely time here but it’s time for me to go now, thank you. So, again I think that bit about fit and culture and working out what it’s like to work in a place is really important and I’ve got a few tips around that I’m sure that we can talk about in the session. So, lovely to be here, thank you. ZR Right, that’s brilliant, yeah that’s brilliant, yeah, that’s exactly what we want is that sense of you know, how do you do your own research and suss out the company, I think yeah that’s definitely something that’s going to come off as we go through these questions. Charlotte, do you want to tell us a bit about yourself and maybe, yeah, what your perspective on interviewing is? Charlotte Wakeham (CW) Thank you, Zoe. So, hi everyone, my name is Charlotte, I work, similar to Paul as an HR professional. So, I work in a large organization at Royal Mail. 00 05 52 CW I um, have actually worked in the same organization since I left education, so I suppose for me today when I talk about kind of interviewing, I can share perspectives of somebody who again, similar to Paul has completed lots of assessments but I suppose for me personally, I’ve really only experienced that internally. So, hopefully that will give a different view. A big part of my role now is to work with our apprenticeship population. So, we do quite a lot of hiring per year, and so I’m quite closely involved in terms of what, what do those assessments look like? How do we measure potential to bring people into our organization, and so yeah, hopefully that will be helpful. But really delighted to be here, and I’ve worked closely with the CIP Trust as well as part of the, the CIPD mentoring programs as well, so, I’m also a fellow at the CIPD. So, yeah. really, really looking forward to any questions that you guys have, and yeah, really here today to share any experience that I can. I suppose as a as an individual that has assessed and been assessed to help you guys. So, yeah, thank you Zoe. ZR Brilliant, great! And Angelica, let’s hear from you. Angelica Simpson (AS) Good morning, everyone! My name is Angelica, I’m the Head of HR at a company called Genius Within, and we are a newer divergent-led business. So, the way that we do a lot of our internal and external processes with regards to recruitment is quite different, so I think I’ve got a unique perspective in terms of reasonable adjustments and doing things differently as well as being in the HR space for over 10 years. Looking at it from a perspective of me trying to get into HR when I left uni with my HR degree and looking at it from the ways of things that I did probably back then trying to get my first roles, to probably what I do a lot differently now and looking at it from a place of what do I need from an organisation as well. So, I think kind of what Paul said as well, it’s a two-way street, so there’s things that the organisation can do to support interview candidates but there’s also things that you need to look at and do that due diligence piece for yourself to make sure that you are choosing the right company, which in this time we know cost of living can be difficult but you’ve also got to think about the impact on your mental and you know, mental well-being as well if you make that wrong decision. So, I think it’s just about being really cautious and understanding yourself before you take a role as well because that’s really important. So, looking forward to the discussions today. ZR Great, thank you Angelica, and hopefully we’ll be able to hear a bit more about the kind of things that you do at Genius Within because I think it’s always useful to remember that not all interviews are the same, and that actually there are companies that will do it differently, and yeah so hopefully we can, we can hear a bit more about that later on. AS Yeah. ZR So, before we hear a bit more from our panel, we want to hear from all of you in the audience, and we’ve got our first poll question coming up. So, hopefully this should pop up on your screen. 00 09 01 ZR We did have problems with this last time we ran one of our webinars, but the question that we have for you is, if you could ask one question at an interview that you would like definitely get an honest answer about, and there would be no repercussions, what would you ask? What would be the one thing that you would ask if you could ask anything? I think for me, my question would always be how well-trained your managers because I’m a bit obsessed with quality of management in organisations, but yeah it would be great to hear what you guys have. If you have any questions or thoughts, we’ll just leave those to come in. Oh God, I think I’ve lost the responses. Oh, there we go! Oh, here we go someone is asking about career mobility, I think that’s definitely something you can ask. Turnover rate, yeah, I think, culture within the organization definitely. So, I think these are all things that we’re going to come up with, someone’s put red flags which I think is always something you want to get at in the in an interview, that it’s you kind of need to unpick what that might be for you. Great. So, without further ado, we’ll get around to our first question, which I think covers a lot of these things, which is what are the key questions to ask at the end of an interview? So, when you get to that point at the end of an interview, what are the things you know when they say, and do you have any questions for us? What are the things that you should ask, I wonder Charlotte if you could tell us what your kind of perspectives on that from all of your kind of particularly that sort of early career stuff you’ve been looking at. CW Absolutely I think as a as an assessor, I think although always position this as an opportunity, look, we want to hear what you have to say, I would suggest always asking a question. So, go into the interview, you can take your notebook and have a few things that you’re really keen to find out about the organization. I always find it really insightful when I’m asked things like, what does a typical day look like? or how would you describe the culture? But I think some of the questions that have really stood out for me are things like what keeps you in your role. So, you can get a really good understanding of kind of what do people enjoy most, what are the things that stand out for them. So, yeah definitely something I’d encourage you to ask the assessor, and I think the other one is look it’s a two-way conversation as well. So, I have given a presentation topic just as an example and then when we move on to questions, the candidate has quite rightly said to me. So, for, if I’ve said to them, what do you think are the biggest challenges facing this, and I’ve often been asked the same question back to me at the end of the question so that you can kind of see those perspectives as well after you’ve done your research. So, I think yeah, those are the bits that stand out for me. ZR Yeah, that’s really interesting isn’t it, just turning some of those interview questions around sometimes and saying, well actually what is the perspective on this. Angelica, do you have anything to add on that? 00 12 09 AS Yeah, I think for me and what I, one of the questions I asked, and I felt was really insightful for me was, you know, for your ideal candidate, I kind of said it back to my interviewer, for you to find that ideal candidate, what would you see in here and they described everything that I could do, and who I was as well. So, then that helped me to understand whether the role was for me. So, if they say, well, we expect someone who I don’t know is different to everything that you are as a person, then you might think, well, actually, yeah, actually this might not be the role for me. So, it’s about asking them their expectations from the get-go, so then you can then manage your own inner expectations of whether you can fulfil that role or fit into the way of their thinking and the way that they do things at the organization. ZR Yeah, yeah, that’s really good way of putting it. I think sometimes it’s hard to get at those things without sounding, like pushy, almost because you don’t want to be like, well what’s your, what you know, am I doing well, kind of thing, but yeah, asking about what their ideal candidate I think that’s a really great way of putting it. Fab. So, our next question, which kind of leads off from that is, how to know if the culture and management, not just the people interviewing, really do care about people and doing the right thing. So, I think this this is a question that someone has submitted about how do you assess that wider culture and you know, how what can you ask to really get at that like whether or not the, the kind of things that people are saying is actually borne out by the way that the organization works and the way that the kind of management will treat people throughout the organization. Paul, I wonder if you’ve got any perspectives on that having mentioned that you’ve kind of been in working cultures you maybe weren’t that comfortable in. PB Yeah, yeah, definitely. So, I think that that overarching word about culture means different things to different people, to be honest with you. I don’t think it’s an exact science, I mean the things I think that stand out for me in the work that I’ve done is very often organizations are very clear about their values and the kind of questions I think I would be asking would be saying, so, tell me about the values and how are they embedded in the organization, and then I think that other bit about I saw that up there as well about sort of leadership style, and management style, I would I would be asking about well what’s the kind of preferred management style here. How do people actually work? And I think the last question for me would be that bit about and I’m sure it would come out in the interview. So, how would you support me in the first three months in this role, you know, particularly if you’ve got the line manager there to get a sense of what their style is and how somebody’s going to support you. So, I think some of those kind of big picture questions and then drilling down a little bit to, well, what does that mean to me. ZR Yeah I think that’s really important isn’t it it’s thinking about it’s not, I sometimes we talk about culture as this big nebulous thing but really the ultimate thing is like what does it mean for you on a like a day to, sort of you know, in terms of those quite kind of concrete things around your role. Angelica I know that you have like a kind of very inclusive culture at Genius Within is that like, what how would you kind of assess that if you were were being interviewed? Like what are the questions you might ask to kind of get at that? 00 15 35 AS I think I’d ask questions, but I’d hope to see a lot of that so, when you’re doing your research like showcasing the culture so, can you see, is there you know, the employee voice, are there, is there a lot employee testimonies of the stories because if you have like stories about the leadership team, stories about employees it kind of makes people more human. So, when you’re looking at a website of a company just having like, be what it, like what it is like to be in that organization. Is it reflective as well, so, you know, having like not stock images but images of any kind of in-person events that the company holds. So, I think use I think as an organization and stuff like that we we’re working on it at Genius but then it’s making sure that our culture and who we are is seen as soon as you come and look at who we are. So, you know, we’ve got disability confident logos and ban the box, a quality statement, DEI statement. So, all of those things that are important to the organization, hopefully as a candidate shouldn’t have to dig too hard to find. And then when asking about it I think, it’d be difficult depending on the position that you’re going for because for me, depending if you’re in a senior role you might ask okay, so, what’s the leadership’s view on certain topics that are important to you as an individual because you know there’s some organizations and we have a like an employee resource group. So, do you have an employee resource group, might be something that you know people want to know exists because you know, then you know that there may be a group that you can identify with, someone you can go and speak to, so it is very individual but I think as an organization, you should be able to see a lot of the who they are on their website and if you can’t then that might be that red flag that we’ve spoken about, is if they’re not if they’re not showcasing who they are and what they, who they are and what their values are, then they may not be who you want to, where you want to go, if you can’t see something that aligns to you, that’s it. ZR Yeah I think it’s so important isn’t it, is doing that research, putting that together with, you know, the interview experience as well, it’s that it’s kind of it’s having the kind of the full picture or as much as you can, probably also a bit of a challenge to employers that are about, you know, how are you showcasing yourself on your website and do you have real people in your photos, things like that. Great, so our next question this is quite a long one, is what advice would you have for exploring what works well under pressure or a fast-paced environment actually means in a job description? And this person has said I don’t want to come across as not being able to handle those things, but I know that I work better when I’m less stressed and would feel happier in an organisation that doesn’t have unrealistic expectations. So, Paul I wonder if you, I know that you’ve kind of worked in quite a range of different kinds of organizations with probably different levels of fast-pacedness. Do you want to just tell us what your perspective is on that? PB I think the first question I would ask would be about, well what do they actually mean by that, in terms of the fast-paced organization. 00 18 45 PB I think I’ve got my probably would have my own perception of what that meant. So, I think that’d be the first question is try to clarify what that really meant and then I think again then, it’s kind of drilling down underneath that to think about once you’ve heard that description, about you know, I’ve gone back to some of the quotes from earlier about, so what does that look like on a daily basis, you know, what does that mean, does it mean very long hours, does it mean a lot of meetings, you know, trying to really understand what’s underneath the words because I think it’s really important as we said it’s a two-way street, and if it’s something is the person asking that question that you know, if you’re somebody who is quite introverted and doesn’t like being in a lot of meetings and being in the public all the time, that’s going to be a shame for you. You can do it, but as we all know if you have to work outside your comfort zone it can be very tiring and very often leads to stress for people. So, again, I think it’s about understanding the big picture stuff about the culture, and then really understanding well, what exactly does this job look like every day, really? And is that going to meet my needs and my preference about how I like to work because everybody’s preferences are quite different, really. So, I think that would be the things I’ve been exploring, just trying to understand what’s underneath the words and what it means on a day-to-day basis in that job. ZR Yeah, yeah. And how do you, how would you kind of recommend that someone sort of talks about their own preferences? Like, if someone knows that they’re not going to be the best at kind of fast-paced environments, like how would you go about having that conversation with a potential employer? PB Well, I work a lot with people when I’m coaching them, and use a tool called Strengthscope, so strength-based interviews are quite popular at the moment. So, I very often say to coaches, I’ll say be quite honest about what your preferred style is, you know. So, if you are somebody who likes a lot of detail, and it’s a big picture job, might not be the right job for you, and vice versa, really. So, not being afraid if you’re comfortable in your own skin about the things that are your strengths and that you’re really good at because we all know from the research evidence, if you work in your preference, you will actually perform better. There’s a lot of evidence around that now, and if you’re not going to be working in your preference, it may not be the right job for you. So, I think being quite honest about that about what you’re really good at, what you really enjoy, and what motivates you, because that will deliver the best performance. ZR Yeah, absolutely. And I wonder Charlotte if you’ve got any thoughts about this, because I imagine at Royal Mail, you have quite a lot of jobs that are maybe not for everyone. How do you kind of balance that with, you know, what people are looking for? CW Absolutely, I think Paul’s advice was excellent. So, I was actively kind of nodding away. I think that’s the key isn’t it, is to ask the questions and see the interview as an opportunity to really ask the questions around the role. 00 21 51 CW It links back to the piece around that we discussed at the beginning, around it’s a two-way street. Make sure that you’re asking questions and so, yeah, so, I suppose all I can add to that is it really is a two-way conversation. Make sure that you’re fully understanding about the role and use that as an exploratory conversation. I think as a as an organization, so, if I think about roles that I’ve recruited, it’s in, it’s in the organization’s interest to describe that in the most effective way possible. So, whilst outlining the culture and you want to give a realistic view, the worst thing is that you wouldn’t want somebody to sell somebody this and you can’t deliver that. So, I think organizations do have a role in terms of how they, I suppose how they sell that opportunity but definitely feel empowered at interview to ask, look what does that mean? What does kind of working under pressure mean in the context of this role? And I suppose just listening to the conversation it made me think that there might be some scenarios where the advert doesn’t maybe mention that however, if you were asked about that in an interview, it is something worth thinking about, how might you answer that question, and I think there are ways to kind of reframe it. So, and there might be roles where you need to kind of work at a fast pace but you can flip that in terms of actually this is an example of where I have delivered this under tight time scales or, and you’re able to work with uncertainty because I think there are lots of skills that that link together but ultimately, definitely, if you have really strong kind of preferences in terms of the environment you want to work in, use it as an opportunity so, you know exactly what’s you you’re applying for asking those questions, but also it’s a chance to self-exclude isn’t it. So, not every role will be for everybody. So, that enables you to apply for stuff that that you are passionate about and that will work in line with your skill set. ZR Yeah, absolutely, and I think a part of it is digging down into some of those kind of more nitty-gritty details because some organizations I think that they’re very fast-paced when actually they’re not. There’s often a bit you know, there’s a lot of, you know, that’s just to do with the culture in the backgrounds of people there, and obviously you know, you only know what your previous experience has been. So, sometimes you can come in somewhere where they’ll be like oh, you know, yeah we work at a really high rate and you think, oh, actually no, you don’t, but that’s fine, that’s not a problem. So, sometimes it is about saying, you know what, what does that actually mean? And thinking about, yeah, like you were saying Charlotte, what it is that you want, and that kind of, yeah. Not every role is the right role for you, I think is absolutely, what we’re coming up with so, we’ve got another poll question for you guys. So, the question is oh, yeah, so of the things that you’ve heard so far, what is the one thing that you’re kind of already thinking, oh yeah, I’m going to take that away. That’s definitely something to remember. I mean, I know that I’m definitely thinking about that like not every role is right for you. I think it’s sometimes very easy to forget when you’re in the middle of sessions, in the middle of like an interview and you think, oh yeah, I really just want this job, and you don’t necessarily think about whether or not it’s the right job for you. 00 25 09 ZR So, yeah, if you’ve heard anything so far please do pop it in that poll box and if there’s something that you haven’t heard but maybe want to share with others, please do add that in or put it in the chat. OK. So, while those are coming through, I think we’ll go on with our next question. So, we’ve slightly edited the wording of this but let’s see, it says I have left the third sector after four years and I’m looking for work in the corporate sector. So, this is someone who’s kind of moving from one sector to the other. They say I’m anxious about having had a bad experience previously what should I look out for in an employer, and I think the kind of longer version of this was really about someone having not had like a great (inaudible) in one employer and then feeling a bit scarred by that experience and not sure what to look out for in their kind of next employer, and particularly changing sectors, I think also felt like a bit of a shift. So, Angelica I wonder if you could start us off with that, what are the kind of things that someone should be thinking about or maybe you know, how to how do you keep that balance of not overreacting to things but also asking really useful questions? AS I think because I’m thinking from like an internal perspective, for us, we have like a business etiquette policy. So, that it’s quite clear when we’re doing when we provide recruitment instructions, we send out like a very comprehensive email that says you know, this is what we do and this is like, it’s business casual, you don’t need to dress up. So, we’re quite we make sure that our comms piece is very clear so, that there isn’t those kind of questions that are left unanswered. So, we try to give a lot of information and when I first got to Genus Within coming from like a corporate world, I felt that there was a lot of information that we give, but by giving all of this information and having like a recruitment person saying this is what you’re going to find during the recruitment process, you’ll have an interview with these people, you’ll have this. We just kind of give as much information to ask if there’s any kind of reasonable adjustments or anything like that. So, I think it’s hard because we try and give all of that information. So, if you haven’t got it, if there’s anything that you’re not sure of, I think as a candidate, just ask those questions because it’s better that you ask up front rather than not go there and not understand. So, from an organisation perspective, if you’ve got any employers or HR recruiters here, it’s about giving as much information and making it quite clear. We have a majority neurodivergent employee base. So, everything that we do is we use it as kind of quite clear. So, we don’t like any ambiguity because people interpret things in a different way. So, we try and make things as clear as possible. So, again, from an interviewer perspective, just giving as much information ahead of that interview, giving directions, giving preferences, giving examples of reasonable adjustments just kind of helps people. But I think from a candidate perspective, it’s just you can only ask the question. I think just ask the questions that are on your mind, any burning questions you’ve got, you’ve got to ask them because you’ll never know until you get there. And at that point, it might be too late. So, I think it’s just transparency. 00 28 25 ZR And in terms of that, for candidates who don’t get all of that information, which, you know, does happen. AS Yeah. ZR Is it like in your experience as an HR person, particularly in other organizations, I guess, where you weren’t always giving all that information, is that like what does it matter if someone asks, oh, can you give me, you know, can you tell can you tell me if I need to wear a specific dress code for the interview? Like, does that is that like would that have an impact on someone’s interview? Or is that just the kind of thing that routinely happens? And actually, it’s fine to ask those questions beforehand. AS I think that it’s OK to ask those questions, because, like you say, every organization is different. Everyone has different expectations. There’s different ways of working. So, to just kind of expect everyone to know what the expectations are is a little bit unfair. So, I wouldn’t if someone asked me the question, I wouldn’t have an issue. And for our hiring managers, I’m always like, can you please be very transparent about the role? Let them know exactly what they’re letting themselves in for. Just like just tell them everything, gory details and all. That’s because, like you say, recruitment takes a long time. So, you want to make sure you get the right person. So, we also we don’t just do, we do like task-based tasks as well. So, if we do an interview task, you’re actually doing a part of the role that you were doing again. We know if you can do it, you know, if this is something that you want to do, as well as also kind of giving a test drive as well on some roles and saying, you know, you can come in and do a trial day as well. So, I think it’s about just opening up the opportunities that you give just to make sure that the right person comes into the role, because if we’re trying to like sell them rose-tinted glasses and everything’s rosy, then a couple of months down the line, it’s not going to be to anyone’s benefit. So just be and I think asking any questions, answering any questions isn’t something that I would like think, oh, why they’re doing that. It’s like they’re really interested in the role, and they want to make sure that they’re a good fit. So, there’s no problem with that, I would say. ZR Great. Excellent. Paul, I wonder if you’ve got any perspective on this, the kind of the question around someone feeling anxious about having had a bad job experience and then going into interviews, I guess, particularly from your kind of coaching perspective. Is there anything that you would advise or suggest? PB Yeah, a couple of clients have got those things going on at the moment. So, quite live. So, the first thing I would say, I have many quotes I’ve gathered over the years. People don’t leave organisations, they generally leave the line manager. And that’s been my experience in the last 30 years. So, if the relationship with the line manager breaks down, people usually go, to be honest. And just thinking about the two or three people I’m coaching at the moment that are in that space where that relationship is not where it should be and talking them through about, well, am I going to put my effort into repairing the relationship? Or am I going to put my effort into maybe this isn’t actually the right job for me or the right organisation? 00 31 37 PB And I think that’s the bit where, to be honest, that more therapeutic approach is really connecting with yourself and working out what’s really going on for me here. What’s going on underneath the surface here? Why I can’t go on with this particular line manager. It may be a style issue, it may be a clash of personalities. The person may be a bit of a control freak. There’s a whole range of issues why these things break down that we see. And I think the other bit that I would add, and I hope this is still answering the question, just that bit about the research piece. So, if I talk about, particularly from a public sector perspective, there is so much out there. So, if you go for a job in the NHS, everything’s out there, isn’t it? You can see the staff survey. You can see what the CQC have said about the organisation. If you’re lacking, you can observe a board meeting online. So, you can see a lot of the very big picture stuff in the data, as well as those more detailed questions about the job and the organisation. And yeah, a little bit about, I’ll tell you what I was sort of tuned into in that last conversation about maybe a tiny little bit of challenging questions to your line manager, just to see what kind of reaction you get. So, something about, so, is this line manager up for, you know, actually I’m going to come to the organisation and I’m going to bring some expertise with me. And there is something about somebody new coming in and being a fresh pair of eyes and asking what I call the silly questions in the first three months, which is, well, why did we do it like that and seeing what kind of connection you get to that as well. So, a little bit of playing with it, but not in an overly challenging way, in a respectful way that you would want to be asked the question as well. So, there’s some thoughts from certainly my experience, and particularly that stuff that’s quite live for me at the moment, working with coaches who are in a bit of a space of, I’m not sure if I’ve taken the right job. I’m sure it, I don’t think it’s unusual for it to happen to us all at some point in our career, and not to beat yourself up and over about it. ZR Great. Yeah, I think that’s, I think that’s true, isn’t it? It’s not, it’s, you’re not alone, I think, if you find yourself in a job that’s not right for you. I think, you know, that’s happened to a lot of people. And yeah, you know, it’s, yeah, just do what you can really in that situation, but I think it’s really important to remember that it’s just one moment in your career and it’s not, it doesn’t define the rest of your career. So, we’ve had a question come through in the chat, which is, can I ask about salary? And this person has written a lot of people professionals say that it’s not appropriate. We’ve also had a question that came through in advance, which was how not to answer the question, what is your current salary? So, I thought this was quite an interesting kind of piece about they, you know, how do you, how do you kind of not answer if an interviewer wants to know your salary? And also, how do you ask about salary if that hasn’t already been shared? I wonder, Charlotte, if you’ve got any thoughts about that? CW Yes, it’s definitely a hot topic and something I read lots about. I do think more, lots more organisations are moving towards salary transparency. So, I’m seeing lots more adverts with the salary on there. 00 35 04 CW And I have experience where a salary hasn’t been advertised, actually people contacting the recruiter during that recruitment process to understand, look, could you give me a salary range? And, and then you can, again, going back to making sure that you are making an informed decision to what you apply for. So, I think, don’t feel like you have to go through the process and wait until then, if there are contact details, as there are, you can often see who the recruiter is. I would recommend asking the question because it gives you a good view in terms of the level that the role is pitched at as well. I think in terms of, I’ve certainly been asked before in terms of what are your salary expectations? Or even I know that organisations shouldn’t, but I’ve seen out there as well, kind of the question, what is your current salary? I think when you’re asked around salary expectations, you can be broad and so, you can talk around that based on my current experience, I’m looking for something within this range, or I’m looking for something with this dependent on the benefits as well, because it’s the whole package as well, isn’t it? That is really important. So, I think there are ways to answer it without, whilst absolutely answering the question, being professional, being polite, but in a way that works for you. So, I think it’s a great thing to be thinking about because often those questions will come up. ZR Yeah, and I think that’s the right answer, isn’t it? It’s really finding a way to answer that question that you’re comfortable with. And I mean, yeah, you know, people, we would advise don’t ask about, you know, current salary in an interview or previous salaries. But, you know, these things do happen. So, and I think, I mean, I’ve got a real bugbear about salary transparency. So, really great for you to say that, you know, you should just go ahead and ask. My view is always, you know, no one is working for free, so you need to know if you can afford to apply for that job or not. There’s no point applying if they’re going to pay, you know, £20,000 less than you can afford to live on. It’s just not how it works. So, yeah, I think it’s, you know, yeah, I would always advise people just be bold about those things, because if a company is weird about it, that gives you information about them anyway. So, yeah, thank you for that. Yeah. Angelica, did you have anything you wanted to add on that at all? AS No, literally just that if they do give you a weird response, then that’s the red flag in itself, because, like I say, it’s about giving people the transparency of a salary anyway. And I know that not everyone does it, but how can someone apply for a job if they don’t know what they’re applying for? And it’s also about ensuring that you’re not trying to increase on pay gaps as well, but that’s a gender pay gap, the ethnicity pay gap. So, all of those things give you a little bit of an insight into the organisation, whether that’s somewhere you want to be anyway, is what I would say. ZR Yeah, in a similar vein, we’ve had a couple of questions come through about asking around flexibility and kind of one question particularly about if a job is part-time, how can you ask how they want those hours worked which is a question I’ve certainly never come across before, but I think it’s really interesting. 00 38 26 ZR I wonder Angelica, if you’ve got any thoughts about that, how people can ask those questions about, you know, flexible working and part-time hours and things like that. AS I would, again, I find this really difficult because we are quite transparent and say this is what we do. We do flexible working. So, we are a unique organisation, I will say that, but we are flexible. We offer, you know, remote working as well. And that’s because we have a lot of new divergent employees so, we’ve got different ways of working, but I would again ask the question, I would like to do part-time hours. How does that work? Do you have core hours? Do you do flexitime? If it’s a part-time role that you’re applying for then those questions are probably fairly standard in just kind of being quite clear to understand whether you’ve got core working hours or I can work around my flexibility is it based on productivity rather than certain hours, some people work on as long as you get the task done, that’s absolutely fine. So, just asking that question just to manage your own expectations is okay to do. If it’s a full-time role asking, you know, this is a full-time role, are you considering part-time hours? Again, is something that you know, some people will respond to say yes, please send three details and then they if they can’t then they will send, they’ll give you a response and they’ll hopefully they’ll give you a reason as to why and that could be that you know they just can’t. They need someone full-time, there’s no opportunity to do a job share or something like that. So, asking those questions like, oh you need to ask these questions to ensure that this is a right role for you. So, I wouldn’t shy away from it. ZR Yeah, that’s great isn’t it? I think that’s the thing isn’t it? If you need to ask the questions, you should just ask the questions that’s the sort of the important thing isn’t it? And you can do that professionally without it, you know. I think sometimes those things can feel really, you know, it can give you a lot of anxiety that sense that you haven’t had the information that you need but I think holding on to the idea that you need that information is super important. Great. So, we’ve also had a question come in about feeling a bit rusty in terms of interviewing, how to prepare for interviews, especially if you’re a bit rusty and then we’ve also had another one on a similar vein about kind of feeling anxious before interviews. Paul, I wonder if you’ve got any thoughts from kind of your perspective about what people can do if they’ve got that kind of anxiety or they’re feeling a bit out of practice. PB I think the out of practice thing is, can be quite normal for people, I think. If you’ve been in a job for four or five years and haven’t had an interview, it’s a skill isn’t it and it’s a practice really. So, find a friend or a colleague that you can practice with, so, again, I do a lot of that with coaches that are going for jobs, you know, do a really tough interview with them to see how they do and actually give them a give them some feedback and some pointers. So, find somebody who has got a bit of expertise in that area to have a few practices with, who you trust and is going to give you some constructive feedback, and have a couple of goes at that. 00 41 42 PB I think the other bit about anxiety, I think a little bit of anxiety is okay. So, my supervisor talks about performance anxiety, so, I know if I’m running a workshop tomorrow, I’ll probably have a bit of a restless sleep the night before, really and actually that makes you perform better on the day, I think it’s when it tips into something a bit more than anxiety that you can be quite nervous in the interview. So, again, there’s lots of things you can do to kind of try and ground yourself, really isn’t there? So, personally, I think it’s great if you’ve got an interview first thing in the morning and you’re not sitting around all day worrying about it because it’s two o’clock in the afternoon that may well be the case. So, how do you actually just spend that time in the morning really productively and not maybe necessarily doing your homework on it you’re not it’s a bit like going for an exam isn’t it? You’re not going to learn anything in the two hours before just take some time to chill out and just so that you’re at your best really for going for the interview. You know your own self and how your mind works in your own body so, there’s something about do some things that are going to distract you so, that by the time that you’re going for the Interview, you’ve done the homework the week before, it’s all in there, and that you’re as calm as you can be. And also, I think another thing about it is, be authentic, be the best version of yourself that you can be in the interview, don’t try and pretend to be something that you’re not because actually that very equally, a very, that very, shows up when you’re under pressure really and start to say things that you’re not really quite believing in yourself, you know. You know, don’t try to be somebody else or a different version of yourself, I think. ZR Yeah great, I think that’s yeah being authentic is so important and so easy to forget, I think in these kinds of contexts, I would also say that I was once, told about kind of reframing your anxiety as excitement, and, that if you think about it as like you’re excited and think about all the great things that could happen, that can be a better way of managing it than trying to calm down, which is much more kind of challenging sometimes. So, you kind of you bring that excitement in as a kind of a bit of a tool, like you were saying it’s not always a bad thing, it’s how you use it, I think, so yeah, really great advice. And we’ve also had a question come in about and I think this is one for you, Charlotte, are there any tips on how to come across as professional before you are a professional. So, I think this is a bit kind of an early careers question about how you how you can sort of, I don’t know, style it out I guess before you’ve quite got there. What do you think? CW Yeah, so, it’s a really good question and yeah, you’re right, for me working in early careers people don’t know what they don’t know. So, we’re interviewing people it’s the first exposure to the workplace they’ve had and the colleagues that are successful we do a lot of work with them in terms of, even things like how to manage your calendar, time management, making sure you take notes in meetings. But I think overwhelmingly, the biggest piece is kind of, to be yourself and I think naturally, people typically know how to act in certain scenarios. So, trust that you can kind of read the room, you can adjust your behavior in that way. 00 45 08 CW But I think that there are things similar to what I just mentioned, actually those kinds of core soft skills. So, really thinking about kind of how do you show up? So, think about kind of I know we’ve talked about the dress code already, make sure that you’re kind of dressing for the occasion. Based on kind of what I’ve seen of that organization and things like turning up on time. So, I know lots of people have a view in terms of how early to arrive for an interview. I think for me, kind of at being there at least 15 minutes before demonstrating you’re there, you respect the time, but also um another way that you can kind of come across as professional is that time management during the session. So, if you have a set window for your interview or a big one, I think actually if you have an interview where you’re doing a presentation, it’s all about time management. So, actually it’s up to you to kind of practice beforehand make sure that you understand that you can do that presentation to time, and I think those are all things that kind of that’s how you’re choosing to show up. So, whilst it’s not necessarily about vocabulary or things like that actually sometimes the more simple you talk the easier it is to get that message across. So, I don’t think anybody would be assessing you on that basis but there were just small things like the examples I’ve described, it’s kind of how you show up that demonstrate that you, it’s essentially, how you would act if you were in that work environment moving forward. ZR Yeah that’s great. We’ve had, we’ve also had a question this is really for you Angelica, someone who is neurodiverse and would kind of like to hear more about reasonable education adjustments that can be made in interviews. I guess it would be interesting to hear what you do at Genius Within and also I guess, maybe your perspective on when people are not interviewing with you, what they might ask for, what things might be helpful for them. AS Yeah, so I think, like just asking the question of, whenever we send out all of our invitations that please let us know so at every point it’s about please let us know about any reasonable adjustments. Again, if it’s not a reasonable adjustment, it’s not mentioned then people will have that awareness of can I ask? Because it’s not been mentioned but what we find, we do give out interview questions in advance. So, just going through myself, I’m not neurodivergent, but having the interview questions made me feel at ease and I think from an interview perspective, it’s also about just remembering that they are just human and hopefully the right organization won’t see it as a test. We’re not there to test people, we’re just to get the right person in for the role. So, you should never feel like it’s a test, it’s about you know, bringing yourself in so being authentic but from a reasonable adjustment perspective we give the interviews in advance. So, everyone gets them, so, it’s whether you knew, so, again it’s that psychological safety piece. If you go to an organization, you might not want to say you have the requirement for reasonable adjustment. So, it’s just asking everybody, not waiting to be asked, and so everybody gets treated the same. We’ve also given the option instead of it being in person, give it, doing it virtually if that’s an option. We have given like direction. So, I think the main point, the main one that we give is given the option of doing a virtual interview we also always give the interview questions out in advance. 00 48 42 AS So, that’s something that makes calm anxiety. Regardless of who that person is, and I know that there’s you know, people say whether it’s a good thing, it’s a bad thing but we do also do a task based task as well. So, you have the interview questions, but you do need to do some type of practical task so we can then see. Because we’re not testing everyone at the same, we just want to make sure you can do that piece of the job that’s required. So, we try to do the best of both worlds is, you feel confident because I know having the questions, when I had them, I didn’t have to worry about that but then I did have to do my presentation pieces that I had to prepare for as well. Again, you’re given the information on what that needs to be very clear instructions and different ways of doing it and we always, it’s just the simple thing of asking the questions that you need. So, yeah if there’s anything that we can say, asking for longer time. So, if you say I need longer time to answer a question, you know just saying that, you know, the interviewers will give you that extra time just to you know, put your answers together. So, being honest about what you need, if you don’t need to ask the questions and we give an example that, this is what we’ve offered candidates before because not everybody knows what they need as well. So, it’s just it’s a two-way piece again but don’t be afraid to ask if you need something you ask for it. It’s to help you to work at your best during that interview process and that’s what you need. ZR Yeah I think that’s so important isn’t it, that piece about over communicating your needs, I think is really helpful and I think it’s so easy to forget that actually you’re in the conversation too, like you know, you can ask for what you need, yeah, and I always say to people as well, just those phrases reasonable adjustments and accommodations can just go quite a long way and in pushing that conversation a bit further that these are actually things that you need for the interview, they’re not just like, oh it would be nice if. Yeah, I think that’s like super important and useful. Thank you for that, that was really interesting. So, we’ve got, this is our final question that we’re going to answer, which is, came through, come through the registration which is, is one interview really enough to get the right person? And I think there is, imagine there is some kind of some interesting thoughts about this. I wonder, Paul, if you’ve got any kind of initial impressions about that is one interview really enough? PB I think the simple answer is probably no, to be honest with you. I think that, I mean, I think we all know now that, there are people that do well in interviews, and sometimes it works out and sometimes it doesn’t. And I think the example I’m going to give, I thought about this earlier actually, is so this year, for the first time in a long time was involved in the NHS Graduate Training Programme interviews online. So, I haven’t done a huge amount of interviewing in the last five years because I work more in the OD space. And do you know what I thoroughly enjoyed it. It was all online and it was an assessment centre. It was strength-based interviews, there was group work, there was scenarios, and that sort a lot of wash up of looking at what you get out of a strength-based interview, what you get out of a group discussion, what you get out of some role play stuff. 00 52 08 PB Very often some people do well in one bits and not the other, but actually looking at that across the piece as a group and saying, that person did well in the interview, there was some issues are in there about how they interacted with a group, but bearing in mind in this particular programme is about potential it’s about a training scheme. Is that trainable? Is that something that we’d be able to offer them? Oh, and they did average in that so, it’s looking at it across the piece and I think that you get a lot more out of it than just that traditional interview and I think again there’s a lot of research evidence around that now isn’t there which I know that CIPD have been involved in a lot of that. So, I think it is because people have different strengths and perform differently in different areas, really. And again, it’s making sure that whatever that assessment centre is, that it’s actually aligned to what the job is really, to be honest. So, that you’re not testing people in things that they don’t actually need. So, yeah I think I think the simple answer is a range of different interventions I think give you better outcomes for the organization but also for the candidate as well about fit that would be my view. ZR And what about you Charlotte, do you have any thoughts about that? Is one interview really enough? CW I think one session could be enough, absolutely, but to Paul’s point it needs to have multiple different activities in. So, I would typically use a competency-based, kind of interview process to hear examples about what people have done, but I really like using kind of a presentation task so that you can see what people can do and what they’re able to find out about the question. And I think, as an employer, it’s so important that we really think about what are we testing? Why are we asking those questions? So, I agree, it could be kind of an extended session. So, for example, in early careers, you can usually see assessment centres. But I would suggest that the kind of interview alone, I’d like to see more personally just to get a well-rounded view and it’s a two-way conversation, isn’t it? So, want to make sure that we’re allowing time as well for people to showcase the skills that they’d like us to know. ZR Right, yeah I think it’s interesting isn’t it, about just the other side of things, where you know, I know as a candidate often feels like this isn’t long enough for like a, you know can’t possibly showcase myself here. So, it’s interesting to hear that you, you kind of both also have that perspective on you know, is it, has that has that really been kind of a sufficient experience. Well, thank you all. So, I think one of my colleagues is going to share our evaluation form in the chat. We hope you found this session super useful. So, if you could all be filling that out and I will ask our wonderful panel just to give us one final thing that they want people to take away from today. So, Paul, I guess we’ll start with you. PB I’ve written down here two things if that’s all right. I think about be passionate and be engaged about when you go for an interview, and that has being authentic piece definitely. 00 55 25 ZR Yeah, I think that’s being passionate and engaged, I think is something we sometimes don’t talk about enough because we talk about all the nitty-gritty bits and actually, I think if you can come in with some enthusiasm, that actually can take you quite a long way. What about you, Charlotte? What’s your kind of one takeaway that you want people to have? CW I think probably the bit that I wrote down that I didn’t say on the call today is just in terms of in in that preparation piece, understand that people will get nervous, I still get nervous for things that I do. But by understanding kind of what works for you, so doing kind of the practice beforehand saying stuff out loud. But I think the bit that I would encourage people to really think about is kind of how, what, does that kind of grounding piece look like and so, there’s lots of kind of TED Talks around, power poses or breathing and I don’t underestimate them the power of your breathing to kind of calm you down, and even like just before you’re going in, you’re just kind of like lowering the shoulders, taking that breath, and then that can really support how you then go in and show up. But I think kind of managing that and having your own strategy, absolutely, it’s completely normal to be nervous in these circumstances, but if you can find a technique that works for you then it should set you up for success. ZR Yeah absolutely that is great. Love the power poses. It’s definitely something I feel I should do more of. What about you Angelica what’s your kind of one takeaway? AS I think we forget, if we’ve got to an interview there’s something that we’ve already been identified about us if we’re at the interview stage then you know, it’s be comfortable in who you are and what you’ve already brought to the table because that’s the reason why you’re there. So, just be comfortable and also be transparent we know that, namely women tend to not go for jobs if they don’t feel like they can do everything but to be transparent say like there’s some things on the job description that I can’t do confidently, but I’m willing to do. So, just be transparent and say that shows passion, that shows a willing to learn to get outside of your comfort zone as well. So, you know you don’t have to go into a role and know everything because then where’s your room to learn, where’s your room to grow? So, if you can do most of the things on there and there’s some areas where you need to develop, that’s great, that’s longevity, that’s giving you that development piece that you need. So, yeah, just be transparent and have, believe in yourself because you’ve got there, you’ve got to that point based on what you’ve already showed and ask as many questions as you need to. Never such thing as a silly question. ZR Yeah love that, I think that’s really good advice. So, be enthusiastic, don’t worry about feeling anxious and be yourself and be transparent, and ask as many questions. I think we’ve got those nailed. Well, all that remains for me is just to say thank you to our fantastic panel, you’ve all been wonderful. I’m sure if we were all in person there’d be a huge round of applause at this point, so, yeah, thank you very much for your time and for all of your insights, it’s been great and yeah, take care. 00 58 28 AS Thank you. PB Thanks. CW Thank you. Bye. PB Bye. SA Bye bye.